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could you help us

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no i'm i'm not even supposed to be here

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i stole the light from mr dennis but

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he'll be back real soon and

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i can't steal her life for too long or

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he'll know and get angry

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etc that's a scene from the movie split

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which portrays a very extreme case of

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disassociative identity disorder

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but that's just hollywood right

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well consider today's interview

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with dr bernardo castro okay suppose

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that universal consciousness

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has something akin to the id so it also

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forms alters

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what would an alter look like from the

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point of view of another altar

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i would say it will look like what we

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call life

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a body a metabolizing organism

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hold on that isn't exactly what i'm

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talking about because you actually kind

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of pull this into the water so

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you're just wrote a book on the

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metaphysics of young right

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jungian metaphysics something along

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those lines right so

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young is talking about the shadow right

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yeah he's saying well you know i work

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with clients and we can kind of treat

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them just

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like they're separate but they're really

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not you know and then he switches over

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and he goes

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yeah but they are you know and he's kind

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of saying both so right

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yeah now i think if you study

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jung's corpus carefully it's pretty

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clear

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that that's what he thought uh so from

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that perspective

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it aligns with what some religious

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traditions would call discarnate

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personalities

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jung explicitly associated these

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dissociated complexes with what in the

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tradition has been called the angels and

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demons

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welcome to skeptico where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics

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i'm your host alex dicarus and today

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well

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i have a real treat at least for me

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because i welcome back

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bernardo castro to skeptico bernardo

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is without a doubt one of the leading

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public

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intellectuals regarding our

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philosophical

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and scientific understanding of human

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consciousness

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he is just so solid we're talking

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multiple phds one in philosophy one in

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computer science

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high level job in the tech world used to

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work at cern

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many books i've popped up his website

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website here which is just

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outstanding and filled with just so much

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different stuff you can check out but

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you can see many of his books there

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he's of course published in many top

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journals regularly

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contributes to scientific american and

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you know his credentials in my opinion

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and we kind of chatted a little bit

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about this but

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maybe in a different way they're

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unassailable

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in a way that i don't know to me it kind

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of creates a litmus

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test because if i hear anyone kind of

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try and brush

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bernardo aside with just a wave of the

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hand

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i'm like something's up here because

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you just haven't done the work on this

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guy and

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i think that's an extra bonus that we

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get

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in in talking to him so bernardo welcome

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back to skeptico

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it's so great to connect with you it's

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been way too long great to be here like

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indeed it's been a while and nice to see

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you again

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okay well there's so much going on in

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your world

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um new books new articles a lot of stuff

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why don't you give us just a brief recap

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of

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what's up with you and then the first

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thing i'm going to jump into

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after that is this really interesting

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article essay

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you co-published on scientific american

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about disassociative identity disorder

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because it has an interesting connection

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with some of the stuff we've been

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looking into

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over here at skeptico but start out just

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because it has been a while tell us

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what's up

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um since last time we talked i think it

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was in 2016 or 17

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i had published a book on religious

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myths

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and then last year in 2019 i published a

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fairly heavy um yeah academic-oriented

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book actually it's a collection of

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papers published in academic journals

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with text in between to sort of bring

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everything together and make a coherent

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case

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for metaphysical idealism the the notion

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that uh

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all reality is mental in essence it's

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not in your mind alone not in my mind

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alone but it is

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mental at the transpersonal level so

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that book was

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sort of my my surrender to the requests

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i have gotten over the years

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um to make my case as rigorously

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as necessary for academia can we pause

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right there

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and can you maybe lay out for people

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that playing field if you will you know

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the field that you're playing in

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where you're trying to take a position

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who you're taking a position

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against you know like recently i've seen

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some interesting

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debates that you do and i i

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people i think would be kind of

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surprised with i don't know the

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philosophical rigor

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behind consciousness that you're engaged

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in and at the same time the

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scientific we were more well versed on

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this show with the

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scientific controversy surrounding

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consciousness and the hard problem of

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consciousness and stuff like that

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but you kind of have a unique space that

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you're trying to occupy there

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lay that groundwork for people i'm

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trying to occupy the mainstream

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because i think materialism is such a

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bad option it's the worst option

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in the menu of metaphysical alternatives

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we have today

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and it is currently mainstream um i

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think

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that this is an abomination it's a it's

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a it's an aberration

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even a cultural aberration that has

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lasted now over 300 years

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you're referring to materialism as

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opposed to yeah

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with what's technically called

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mainstream metaphysical physicalism but

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for you and me

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and the rest of the world materialism

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the idea that only unconscious matter

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exists and that consciousness is a kind

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of side effect

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of organizations of matter

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stands on reason and empirical evidence

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so i think

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it is a legitimate candidate for our

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next

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better metaphysical narrative closer to

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truth

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so what i have been doing for now since

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end 2016

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is is really going for the mainstream

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publishing mainstream philosophical

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journals mainstream scientific journals

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mainstream science popular science

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journals like

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scientific american and engaging

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mainstream people in in debates

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philosophers and scientists so that's

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the move i i'm making now

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in the early years i tried to speak to

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the general public and i think

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to some extent i was successful um

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but i grew more ambitious

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i think um the case

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for metaphysical idealism is so strong

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that it deserves a very serious hearing

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in the mainstream we just have to

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overcome

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the inertia the momentum that we have

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going for materialism

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so so that we can hear out the story of

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idealism uh in an unprejudiced way

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excellent you know what that might be a

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really nice segue

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into kind of this disassociative

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identity disorder thing that i wanted to

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talk about

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because it both launches us into

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one possible evidential

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element but it also i think gives an

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example of how you're trying to engage

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who you're trying to engage with

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and how you're trying to engage with

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them so

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i've put it up on the screen if anyone's

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watching and scientific american the

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title of this article that you

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co-authored could multiple personality

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disorder explain life the universe

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and everything so tell us about this

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um okay there are three metaphysical

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alternatives

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there are many more but three main ones

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today one is materialism

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um but it can't explain consciousness

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you cannot

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bridge the gap from mass charge momentum

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etc to what it feels

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like to see red to have a bellyache or

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to fall in love that's the problem

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then you have pancythism which says that

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matter

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is inherently conscious so you don't

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need to explain conscience it's it's a

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brute fact of nature

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every electron is conscious every quark

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is conscious

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and now where macro level consciousness

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is is formed by the combination of this

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little micro level consciousness

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consciousnesses of the subatomic

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particles in our brains

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now that face is the so-called

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combination problem

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there is no coherent way to explain

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at least in principle uh how

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subjectivities can combine to form

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compound subjectivities it's a problem

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just as hard as the heart problem

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then the other alternative which is a

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form of idealism it's the one i endorse

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is that okay there is only one universal

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consciousness

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so we don't need to combine anything but

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then you face the decomposition problem

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i don't i can't read your thoughts

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presumably you you can't read mind so

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how can we both

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be this one universal consciousness

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that's where dissociative identity

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disorder comes in

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because this is a empirically validated

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condition we know it exists we have

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brain imaging studies of people with

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this disorder we know they are not lying

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talk about that that in and of itself is

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going to be really significant for

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people and it is an example of

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what i'm talking about in terms of your

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engaging

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science on their terms in their language

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in in this way yeah i'm originally a

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scientist too even though i haven't been

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a professional scientist for

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for a while that that's where i came

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from well

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and talk about that for a second because

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yes you are a scientist you're a

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professional scientist

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you used to work at cern and you're a

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phd in computer science and

290
00:10:34,069 --> 00:10:32,399
you have a very high level position are

291
00:10:36,389 --> 00:10:34,079
highly regarded in that so

292
00:10:38,389 --> 00:10:36,399
you talk as a philosopher because you

293
00:10:40,310 --> 00:10:38,399
got a freaking phd in philosophy

294
00:10:41,910 --> 00:10:40,320
you've written all these amazing books

295
00:10:45,190 --> 00:10:41,920
but yeah i mean

296
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you have the credentials scientifically

297
00:10:49,590 --> 00:10:46,240
but

298
00:10:52,550 --> 00:10:49,600
explain to people this imaging

299
00:10:54,389 --> 00:10:52,560
experiment that was done in germany uh

300
00:10:56,310 --> 00:10:54,399
neuroimaging experiment i think it's

301
00:10:58,470 --> 00:10:56,320
extremely important because we have to

302
00:11:00,310 --> 00:10:58,480
kind of spin back a little bit did

303
00:11:01,990 --> 00:11:00,320
dissociative identity disorder split

304
00:11:04,550 --> 00:11:02,000
personality you know

305
00:11:06,389 --> 00:11:04,560
the movies and all that stuff is still

306
00:11:08,230 --> 00:11:06,399
extremely controversial

307
00:11:09,670 --> 00:11:08,240
among a lot of people who are in

308
00:11:11,030 --> 00:11:09,680
psychology psychiatry

309
00:11:13,509 --> 00:11:11,040
they don't accept that there's any

310
00:11:14,710 --> 00:11:13,519
reality to it some of that is based on

311
00:11:16,630 --> 00:11:14,720
this

312
00:11:18,230 --> 00:11:16,640
materialism that they're attached to or

313
00:11:19,750 --> 00:11:18,240
just they're not up to date on the

314
00:11:21,110 --> 00:11:19,760
research but

315
00:11:23,590 --> 00:11:21,120
the foundation of what you're talking

316
00:11:26,069 --> 00:11:23,600
about is some of the science so

317
00:11:26,790 --> 00:11:26,079
please tell people about that clinical

318
00:11:29,509 --> 00:11:26,800
evidence

319
00:11:30,630 --> 00:11:29,519
for the dissociative identity disorder

320
00:11:32,790 --> 00:11:30,640
which used to be called

321
00:11:33,910 --> 00:11:32,800
multiple personality disorder and the

322
00:11:37,030 --> 00:11:33,920
idea is that

323
00:11:39,350 --> 00:11:37,040
one mind breaks up into many sub minds

324
00:11:41,750 --> 00:11:39,360
uh clinical evidence for this goes back

325
00:11:44,069 --> 00:11:41,760
as far as you can look into the journals

326
00:11:47,190 --> 00:11:44,079
1880s

327
00:11:48,150 --> 00:11:47,200
140 years ago yeah yeah yeah late 19th

328
00:11:50,790 --> 00:11:48,160
century

329
00:11:52,230 --> 00:11:50,800
um but a lot of people still felt

330
00:11:53,110 --> 00:11:52,240
skeptical they thought well people are

331
00:11:57,350 --> 00:11:53,120
just

332
00:12:00,629 --> 00:11:57,360
up to get attention

333
00:12:02,389 --> 00:12:00,639
uh but since at least 2014 that that

334
00:12:05,509 --> 00:12:02,399
doesn't hold anymore because

335
00:12:07,670 --> 00:12:05,519
of uh brain imaging and research uh

336
00:12:08,310 --> 00:12:07,680
there was one done in 2014 here in the

337
00:12:10,710 --> 00:12:08,320
netherlands

338
00:12:12,870 --> 00:12:10,720
by yolanda schlumpf and others which

339
00:12:15,110 --> 00:12:12,880
could identify the patterns of

340
00:12:17,110 --> 00:12:15,120
uh brain activity that correlated with

341
00:12:19,430 --> 00:12:17,120
dissociative identity disorder

342
00:12:20,550 --> 00:12:19,440
and the controls were actors pretending

343
00:12:22,310 --> 00:12:20,560
to be dissociated

344
00:12:24,069 --> 00:12:22,320
and guess what the patterns of brain

345
00:12:25,110 --> 00:12:24,079
activity were completely different so

346
00:12:27,190 --> 00:12:25,120
there is something

347
00:12:29,110 --> 00:12:27,200
dissociative identity disorder looks

348
00:12:30,470 --> 00:12:29,120
like under a brain scanner

349
00:12:31,910 --> 00:12:30,480
so let's let's break down that

350
00:12:33,269 --> 00:12:31,920
experiment because it's kind of a cool

351
00:12:34,230 --> 00:12:33,279
experiment and then we'll get to the

352
00:12:36,230 --> 00:12:34,240
blind one

353
00:12:37,269 --> 00:12:36,240
in a minute because that's really just

354
00:12:39,190 --> 00:12:37,279
over the top

355
00:12:42,150 --> 00:12:39,200
but they they take they take two people

356
00:12:43,910 --> 00:12:42,160
one who claims that they have this

357
00:12:45,750 --> 00:12:43,920
uh whatever a whole bunch of people who

358
00:12:47,750 --> 00:12:45,760
claim they have the id

359
00:12:49,269 --> 00:12:47,760
and then they have and they call it oh

360
00:12:51,350 --> 00:12:49,279
they so somebody claims they have an

361
00:12:52,790 --> 00:12:51,360
altar just they call it an altered

362
00:12:54,310 --> 00:12:52,800
personality yes and that when they

363
00:12:56,389 --> 00:12:54,320
engage in this altar

364
00:12:57,990 --> 00:12:56,399
that they can't they speak a different

365
00:12:59,430 --> 00:12:58,000
language or they have a different accent

366
00:13:01,990 --> 00:12:59,440
just kind of organically they're not

367
00:13:03,829 --> 00:13:02,000
memorizing different memories so then

368
00:13:05,269 --> 00:13:03,839
what did they do in this experiment

369
00:13:07,110 --> 00:13:05,279
tell them about the actor part it's so

370
00:13:08,949 --> 00:13:07,120
fascinating yeah so

371
00:13:11,350 --> 00:13:08,959
how do you control for that because you

372
00:13:14,069 --> 00:13:11,360
cannot just brain scan the people who

373
00:13:15,750 --> 00:13:14,079
who are diagnosed with the id you have

374
00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:15,760
to have a control

375
00:13:21,110 --> 00:13:19,200
but the control needs to act out the id

376
00:13:23,670 --> 00:13:21,120
so the experimenters don't know who is

377
00:13:26,949 --> 00:13:23,680
who uh so they hired actors

378
00:13:28,949 --> 00:13:26,959
and actresses uh to pretend that they

379
00:13:31,030 --> 00:13:28,959
have the idea and act accordingly and

380
00:13:33,990 --> 00:13:31,040
they would go into the brain scan still

381
00:13:35,190 --> 00:13:34,000
acting so it's internalized acting they

382
00:13:38,710 --> 00:13:35,200
try to think as

383
00:13:40,790 --> 00:13:38,720
though they really have uh the id

384
00:13:43,110 --> 00:13:40,800
uh and the and the challenge was can we

385
00:13:45,030 --> 00:13:43,120
discern real did from the actors

386
00:13:46,790 --> 00:13:45,040
and to cut the long story short yeah now

387
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:46,800
they can clearly discern what

388
00:13:50,710 --> 00:13:49,040
parts of the brain according to what

389
00:13:52,629 --> 00:13:50,720
patterns of activation

390
00:13:54,949 --> 00:13:52,639
the people who claim to have the id

391
00:13:57,189 --> 00:13:54,959
present with and the actors present with

392
00:13:58,389 --> 00:13:57,199
something quite different so hold on

393
00:14:01,430 --> 00:13:58,399
this would be this would be

394
00:14:02,629 --> 00:14:01,440
almost sounds like a study designed by

395
00:14:05,110 --> 00:14:02,639
some skeptical

396
00:14:06,790 --> 00:14:05,120
organization which we can't always

397
00:14:08,870 --> 00:14:06,800
dismiss everything they say out of hand

398
00:14:10,790 --> 00:14:08,880
but we can see where people would be

399
00:14:11,910 --> 00:14:10,800
skeptical of the skepticism that's

400
00:14:14,389 --> 00:14:11,920
overcome by that

401
00:14:15,750 --> 00:14:14,399
so next talk about the blind one because

402
00:14:17,670 --> 00:14:15,760
that kind of removes

403
00:14:19,509 --> 00:14:17,680
a lot of the criticisms that someone

404
00:14:22,470 --> 00:14:19,519
might have about the actors

405
00:14:25,189 --> 00:14:22,480
yeah that that that one is tough too to

406
00:14:26,470 --> 00:14:25,199
dismiss that was uh the year after 2015

407
00:14:30,629 --> 00:14:26,480
in germany

408
00:14:33,509 --> 00:14:30,639
um a woman claimed to be several

409
00:14:36,870 --> 00:14:33,519
different altars different dissociated

410
00:14:39,829 --> 00:14:36,880
identities or personalities

411
00:14:43,269 --> 00:14:39,839
and some of them some of these altars

412
00:14:45,829 --> 00:14:43,279
claim to be blind to not be able to see

413
00:14:47,189 --> 00:14:45,839
so they these two psychiatrists had this

414
00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:47,199
brilliant idea of

415
00:14:53,990 --> 00:14:50,800
just hooking this woman up to an eeg and

416
00:14:55,350 --> 00:14:54,000
take brain readings at different times

417
00:14:57,269 --> 00:14:55,360
when different alters

418
00:14:59,110 --> 00:14:57,279
were in control of her body at least

419
00:15:02,069 --> 00:14:59,120
that was the claim

420
00:15:02,949 --> 00:15:02,079
and when a sighted altar was in control

421
00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:02,959
they could read

422
00:15:07,030 --> 00:15:05,760
normal brain brain activity patterns

423
00:15:09,509 --> 00:15:07,040
here the back of the brain

424
00:15:10,949 --> 00:15:09,519
the visual cortex the area associated

425
00:15:14,550 --> 00:15:10,959
with vision

426
00:15:16,550 --> 00:15:14,560
and lo and behold when a blind alter

427
00:15:18,870 --> 00:15:16,560
was in control even though the woman's

428
00:15:20,550 --> 00:15:18,880
eyes were wide open

429
00:15:22,550 --> 00:15:20,560
activity in the visual cortex would

430
00:15:26,550 --> 00:15:22,560
disappear now that's something you

431
00:15:29,269 --> 00:15:26,560
cannot fake um you cannot pretend

432
00:15:30,069 --> 00:15:29,279
that so because of of course there are

433
00:15:32,470 --> 00:15:30,079
critics

434
00:15:34,710 --> 00:15:32,480
of the conclusion that you just made and

435
00:15:37,269 --> 00:15:34,720
that maybe that study wasn't

436
00:15:38,790 --> 00:15:37,279
as solid as you think but just so we

437
00:15:41,749 --> 00:15:38,800
cover the basics

438
00:15:42,069 --> 00:15:41,759
and that is that the neural correlates

439
00:15:45,590 --> 00:15:42,079
of

440
00:15:45,990 --> 00:15:45,600
someone being blind is not something

441
00:15:48,230 --> 00:15:46,000
that

442
00:15:49,590 --> 00:15:48,240
we think in our current model of

443
00:15:50,389 --> 00:15:49,600
consciousness which is what your thing

444
00:15:51,990 --> 00:15:50,399
is all about

445
00:15:53,590 --> 00:15:52,000
i mean i think what this forces the

446
00:15:55,670 --> 00:15:53,600
issue is

447
00:15:57,590 --> 00:15:55,680
bernardo i think you kind of force

448
00:16:00,069 --> 00:15:57,600
people the force choice

449
00:16:00,710 --> 00:16:00,079
say okay either you have to completely

450
00:16:02,470 --> 00:16:00,720
give up

451
00:16:03,749 --> 00:16:02,480
on your model of consciousness and

452
00:16:05,910 --> 00:16:03,759
suggest some other model of

453
00:16:06,550 --> 00:16:05,920
consciousness not even your idealism

454
00:16:07,990 --> 00:16:06,560
thing just

455
00:16:09,910 --> 00:16:08,000
you have to come up with something

456
00:16:11,749 --> 00:16:09,920
because straight up

457
00:16:14,550 --> 00:16:11,759
materialism you don't have an

458
00:16:17,910 --> 00:16:14,560
explanation for how you could do this

459
00:16:20,230 --> 00:16:17,920
so it's worse than that i think

460
00:16:22,069 --> 00:16:20,240
the the paper you just pulled up was my

461
00:16:24,629 --> 00:16:22,079
response i mean that that that's even

462
00:16:26,310 --> 00:16:24,639
that's much more crass than to question

463
00:16:28,230 --> 00:16:26,320
the german study

464
00:16:29,990 --> 00:16:28,240
somebody published an essay on the

465
00:16:32,629 --> 00:16:30,000
skeptical inquirer

466
00:16:34,470 --> 00:16:32,639
uh criticizing my claim that a multiple

467
00:16:36,790 --> 00:16:34,480
personality disorder or dissociative

468
00:16:38,790 --> 00:16:36,800
identity disorder could help us make

469
00:16:41,350 --> 00:16:38,800
sense of the universe

470
00:16:43,110 --> 00:16:41,360
but it was very obvious that the person

471
00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:43,120
didn't bother to read

472
00:16:47,670 --> 00:16:45,600
what i was writing because what's the

473
00:16:50,230 --> 00:16:47,680
alter of this

474
00:16:51,110 --> 00:16:50,240
of this shame of an essay claimed is

475
00:16:53,749 --> 00:16:51,120
that

476
00:16:54,949 --> 00:16:53,759
what he understood i was claiming or

477
00:16:57,269 --> 00:16:54,959
what he thought

478
00:16:58,230 --> 00:16:57,279
hallucinated i was claiming is that

479
00:17:01,110 --> 00:16:58,240
people who

480
00:17:03,110 --> 00:17:01,120
have dissociative identity disorder can

481
00:17:04,870 --> 00:17:03,120
understand the universe better than you

482
00:17:06,630 --> 00:17:04,880
and me now that was not

483
00:17:08,949 --> 00:17:06,640
at all the claim i'm not claiming that

484
00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:08,959
you need to be psychiatrically

485
00:17:11,990 --> 00:17:11,280
diagnosed with did to understand the

486
00:17:15,110 --> 00:17:12,000
universe but

487
00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:15,120
the claim was that the condition called

488
00:17:20,150 --> 00:17:17,280
dissociative identity disorder

489
00:17:20,710 --> 00:17:20,160
can give us hints to what happens to

490
00:17:23,350 --> 00:17:20,720
mind

491
00:17:23,750 --> 00:17:23,360
in order for for different people not to

492
00:17:26,150 --> 00:17:23,760
be

493
00:17:27,909 --> 00:17:26,160
to read each other's thoughts so to say

494
00:17:28,630 --> 00:17:27,919
uh under the assumption that

495
00:17:31,430 --> 00:17:28,640
consciousness

496
00:17:31,990 --> 00:17:31,440
is only one field especially unbound

497
00:17:33,669 --> 00:17:32,000
field

498
00:17:35,110 --> 00:17:33,679
because that is the decomposition

499
00:17:35,830 --> 00:17:35,120
problem that's the problem we have to

500
00:17:39,510 --> 00:17:35,840
address

501
00:17:42,150 --> 00:17:39,520
clinically

502
00:17:43,270 --> 00:17:42,160
and neuroscientifically confirmed

503
00:17:45,909 --> 00:17:43,280
condition

504
00:17:47,190 --> 00:17:45,919
in which one mind seemingly breaks up

505
00:17:49,909 --> 00:17:47,200
into multiple minds it's

506
00:17:51,190 --> 00:17:49,919
it's such a powerful phenomenon that you

507
00:17:54,390 --> 00:17:51,200
can become literally

508
00:17:56,310 --> 00:17:54,400
blind uh uh by it so we

509
00:17:59,590 --> 00:17:56,320
know empirically that mind can

510
00:18:02,390 --> 00:17:59,600
dissociate into seemingly separate

511
00:18:03,669 --> 00:18:02,400
psychic complexities so to say and that

512
00:18:06,390 --> 00:18:03,679
was the claim

513
00:18:08,630 --> 00:18:06,400
that the condition known in psychiatry

514
00:18:11,190 --> 00:18:08,640
as the idea can help us

515
00:18:12,789 --> 00:18:11,200
address the problems of idealism or the

516
00:18:14,789 --> 00:18:12,799
challenges of idealism

517
00:18:16,870 --> 00:18:14,799
but my critic thought that i was

518
00:18:18,710 --> 00:18:16,880
claiming that only people who have the

519
00:18:21,909 --> 00:18:18,720
id can understand the universe

520
00:18:23,669 --> 00:18:21,919
um i mean he didn't even stop to read

521
00:18:27,510 --> 00:18:23,679
the very first paragraph

522
00:18:31,190 --> 00:18:27,520
of what i was writing it's it was

523
00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:31,200
it was comical um hilarious in a way

524
00:18:35,350 --> 00:18:34,080
well and again you know i'm gonna try

525
00:18:37,750 --> 00:18:35,360
and cover that same

526
00:18:39,350 --> 00:18:37,760
point that you just made but maybe in a

527
00:18:40,230 --> 00:18:39,360
in a different way and if i do it

528
00:18:43,270 --> 00:18:40,240
incorrectly then

529
00:18:45,110 --> 00:18:43,280
and then you have to correct me but

530
00:18:46,390 --> 00:18:45,120
one of the things i think is interesting

531
00:18:48,870 --> 00:18:46,400
about

532
00:18:51,430 --> 00:18:48,880
multiple personality disorder did

533
00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:51,440
disassociative identity disorder

534
00:18:57,830 --> 00:18:55,679
is that it suggests consciousness

535
00:18:59,750 --> 00:18:57,840
really working in a completely different

536
00:19:01,669 --> 00:18:59,760
way than we previously

537
00:19:03,430 --> 00:19:01,679
understood that it could kind of

538
00:19:07,830 --> 00:19:03,440
self-construct itself

539
00:19:10,870 --> 00:19:07,840
and in this splitting and forming these

540
00:19:11,750 --> 00:19:10,880
almost conscious entities for lack of a

541
00:19:15,029 --> 00:19:11,760
better term

542
00:19:15,669 --> 00:19:15,039
inside of our consciousness and evidence

543
00:19:17,669 --> 00:19:15,679
of that

544
00:19:20,390 --> 00:19:17,679
which comes through like you said both

545
00:19:23,350 --> 00:19:20,400
clinically and then experimentally

546
00:19:24,710 --> 00:19:23,360
if you were just going to place a bet it

547
00:19:27,669 --> 00:19:24,720
would push you

548
00:19:28,710 --> 00:19:27,679
way against materialism and way towards

549
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:28,720
idealism

550
00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:31,600
before you you know really broke it down

551
00:19:35,669 --> 00:19:32,960
completely like you do

552
00:19:36,230 --> 00:19:35,679
you just be like wow well score another

553
00:19:38,710 --> 00:19:36,240
one for

554
00:19:40,390 --> 00:19:38,720
idealism because it just kind of fits

555
00:19:43,190 --> 00:19:40,400
better over there

556
00:19:44,390 --> 00:19:43,200
i i don't even think it's the best

557
00:19:46,710 --> 00:19:44,400
evidence against

558
00:19:48,549 --> 00:19:46,720
materialism it is certainly very handy

559
00:19:50,789 --> 00:19:48,559
to idealism because it allows the

560
00:19:51,510 --> 00:19:50,799
idealist to solve the decomposition

561
00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:51,520
problem

562
00:19:54,549 --> 00:19:52,960
now look at the opposition the

563
00:19:56,390 --> 00:19:54,559
opposition has the heart problem of

564
00:19:58,549 --> 00:19:56,400
consciousness we have no idea how to

565
00:20:00,390 --> 00:19:58,559
even approach it let alone solve it

566
00:20:02,230 --> 00:20:00,400
and the subject combination problem

567
00:20:03,830 --> 00:20:02,240
which we also have no idea how to even

568
00:20:07,270 --> 00:20:03,840
approach it

569
00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:07,280
so the third option has a empirically

570
00:20:13,190 --> 00:20:10,640
uh consistent uh

571
00:20:14,630 --> 00:20:13,200
avenue for tackling its own challenge

572
00:20:15,350 --> 00:20:14,640
challenge which is the decomposition

573
00:20:18,549 --> 00:20:15,360
problem

574
00:20:19,990 --> 00:20:18,559
but if you want evidence against

575
00:20:21,669 --> 00:20:20,000
materialism there is better

576
00:20:23,909 --> 00:20:21,679
stuff than dissociative identity

577
00:20:26,549 --> 00:20:23,919
disorder agreeing

578
00:20:28,230 --> 00:20:26,559
agreed and you know what i'm really kind

579
00:20:29,990 --> 00:20:28,240
of leading you into

580
00:20:31,990 --> 00:20:30,000
some different waters if you will

581
00:20:32,870 --> 00:20:32,000
because what caught my attention about

582
00:20:36,950 --> 00:20:32,880
the did

583
00:20:38,950 --> 00:20:36,960
stuff was to the two-fold aspect

584
00:20:40,070 --> 00:20:38,960
one it strikes another blow against

585
00:20:43,270 --> 00:20:40,080
materialism

586
00:20:46,630 --> 00:20:43,280
it points out the inadequacies of

587
00:20:47,669 --> 00:20:46,640
psychology to really handle and fully

588
00:20:50,230 --> 00:20:47,679
fold in

589
00:20:52,789 --> 00:20:50,240
like clinical work which has been saying

590
00:20:54,789 --> 00:20:52,799
this for years and if they just deny it

591
00:20:57,110 --> 00:20:54,799
i think that's an important element of

592
00:20:59,110 --> 00:20:57,120
this but what really struck me is i'm

593
00:21:01,350 --> 00:20:59,120
kind of barking up a different tree here

594
00:21:04,549 --> 00:21:01,360
and the tree that i was barking up

595
00:21:06,230 --> 00:21:04,559
had to do with a rather amazing uh bit

596
00:21:07,909 --> 00:21:06,240
of research that i found

597
00:21:10,149 --> 00:21:07,919
and i interviewed this guy if i can get

598
00:21:12,310 --> 00:21:10,159
him up on the screen here

599
00:21:14,630 --> 00:21:12,320
and this guy's name is tom zinzer and

600
00:21:16,870 --> 00:21:14,640
he's a clinical psychologist

601
00:21:18,470 --> 00:21:16,880
from grand rapids michigan now retired

602
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:18,480
but was in the field for

603
00:21:22,310 --> 00:21:20,400
20 25 years working with hundreds of

604
00:21:25,590 --> 00:21:22,320
patients and

605
00:21:28,710 --> 00:21:25,600
most of his patients had did

606
00:21:30,149 --> 00:21:28,720
dissociative identity and his work with

607
00:21:33,909 --> 00:21:30,159
those patients

608
00:21:37,029 --> 00:21:33,919
wound up evolving into

609
00:21:39,990 --> 00:21:37,039
essentially spiritual work and

610
00:21:42,390 --> 00:21:40,000
he was finding that that separation

611
00:21:45,909 --> 00:21:42,400
those alters that were being created

612
00:21:48,870 --> 00:21:45,919
in their consciousness were in fact real

613
00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:48,880
and had different kinds of relationships

614
00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:50,320
to

615
00:21:56,789 --> 00:21:53,520
other spiritual entities in the

616
00:21:59,190 --> 00:21:56,799
extended consciousness realm now that's

617
00:22:00,149 --> 00:21:59,200
a lot to take in i think from where

618
00:22:01,990 --> 00:22:00,159
you're coming at

619
00:22:03,270 --> 00:22:02,000
there are some metaphysical speculations

620
00:22:06,310 --> 00:22:03,280
there that we might have to

621
00:22:09,110 --> 00:22:06,320
address but what i particularly

622
00:22:09,510 --> 00:22:09,120
really appreciated about tom's work was

623
00:22:12,870 --> 00:22:09,520
that

624
00:22:15,430 --> 00:22:12,880
he was extremely uh meticulous and

625
00:22:17,110 --> 00:22:15,440
methodical as a clinician so he's

626
00:22:19,510 --> 00:22:17,120
preparing

627
00:22:21,350 --> 00:22:19,520
he's trying to develop a protocol he's

628
00:22:23,110 --> 00:22:21,360
transcribing all the information he's

629
00:22:23,510 --> 00:22:23,120
getting even if he's getting it from

630
00:22:25,990 --> 00:22:23,520
some

631
00:22:27,830 --> 00:22:26,000
spiritual realm he's trying to use it

632
00:22:28,950 --> 00:22:27,840
then he's trying to apply it in the most

633
00:22:30,710 --> 00:22:28,960
efficacious way

634
00:22:32,310 --> 00:22:30,720
and he's presenting at conferences and

635
00:22:33,909 --> 00:22:32,320
talking to other clinicians and saying

636
00:22:34,390 --> 00:22:33,919
what are you finding does this work with

637
00:22:39,190 --> 00:22:34,400
you

638
00:22:41,510 --> 00:22:39,200
not saying i'm some guru who's

639
00:22:42,789 --> 00:22:41,520
sage on the stage you know talking to

640
00:22:46,310 --> 00:22:42,799
god kind of thing

641
00:22:48,870 --> 00:22:46,320
and i just think there's a part of

642
00:22:49,830 --> 00:22:48,880
how this whole thing is going to move

643
00:22:52,870 --> 00:22:49,840
forward

644
00:22:54,390 --> 00:22:52,880
that is going to incorporate in one

645
00:22:57,669 --> 00:22:54,400
clinical work because

646
00:22:58,390 --> 00:22:57,679
of some of the obstacles it overcomes

647
00:23:00,950 --> 00:22:58,400
that

648
00:23:02,310 --> 00:23:00,960
the scientific lab work just is gonna

649
00:23:05,110 --> 00:23:02,320
kind of grind on

650
00:23:06,149 --> 00:23:05,120
for years and years and and i think that

651
00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:06,159
there's

652
00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:10,799
pre-scientific

653
00:23:15,270 --> 00:23:13,760
clinical opportunity that is tied to

654
00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:15,280
psychology

655
00:23:18,310 --> 00:23:17,840
that might be able to really advance

656
00:23:21,510 --> 00:23:18,320
this

657
00:23:23,110 --> 00:23:21,520
consciousness thing down the field so i

658
00:23:24,630 --> 00:23:23,120
know i kind of threw a lot on the table

659
00:23:26,230 --> 00:23:24,640
there but that's what i thought

660
00:23:28,789 --> 00:23:26,240
would be kind of interesting to chat

661
00:23:31,270 --> 00:23:28,799
with you about

662
00:23:32,549 --> 00:23:31,280
oh how do i comment on this uh i don't

663
00:23:34,470 --> 00:23:32,559
know him so

664
00:23:35,590 --> 00:23:34,480
i will be stepping on eggshells here

665
00:23:39,110 --> 00:23:35,600
because a

666
00:23:41,669 --> 00:23:39,120
subject i'm not familiar with

667
00:23:43,190 --> 00:23:41,679
the baseline of what i'm saying of the

668
00:23:45,990 --> 00:23:43,200
position i put forward

669
00:23:47,830 --> 00:23:46,000
is that what we call life organisms

670
00:23:50,549 --> 00:23:47,840
metabolism

671
00:23:52,390 --> 00:23:50,559
is the image of dissociation in a

672
00:23:54,630 --> 00:23:52,400
spatially unbound

673
00:23:56,630 --> 00:23:54,640
transpersonal consciousness so when

674
00:23:58,710 --> 00:23:56,640
that's say that again say that again

675
00:23:59,990 --> 00:23:58,720
break that down for me okay suppose that

676
00:24:03,350 --> 00:24:00,000
universal consciousness

677
00:24:04,870 --> 00:24:03,360
has something akin to the id so it also

678
00:24:07,350 --> 00:24:04,880
forms alters

679
00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:07,360
what would an altar look like from the

680
00:24:11,269 --> 00:24:09,360
point of view of another alter

681
00:24:12,549 --> 00:24:11,279
i would say it will look like what we

682
00:24:16,710 --> 00:24:12,559
call life

683
00:24:19,909 --> 00:24:16,720
a body a metabolizing organism

684
00:24:23,510 --> 00:24:19,919
from that perspective um

685
00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:23,520
the baseline is uh all alters are

686
00:24:26,149 --> 00:24:24,240
visible

687
00:24:27,590 --> 00:24:26,159
because the image of an altar is a

688
00:24:29,590 --> 00:24:27,600
visible body

689
00:24:31,909 --> 00:24:29,600
if you're alive you're dissociated when

690
00:24:33,590 --> 00:24:31,919
you die you are reabsorbed into that

691
00:24:37,029 --> 00:24:33,600
especially unbound

692
00:24:39,190 --> 00:24:37,039
a trans person of consciousness now

693
00:24:40,710 --> 00:24:39,200
the question that you're probably

694
00:24:43,510 --> 00:24:40,720
alluding to is

695
00:24:45,590 --> 00:24:43,520
could there be the associated alters of

696
00:24:47,590 --> 00:24:45,600
universal consciousness

697
00:24:48,870 --> 00:24:47,600
that do not correlate with the physical

698
00:24:50,549 --> 00:24:48,880
body

699
00:24:51,990 --> 00:24:50,559
hold on that isn't exactly what i'm

700
00:24:53,350 --> 00:24:52,000
talking about because you actually kind

701
00:24:57,110 --> 00:24:53,360
of pull this into the water so

702
00:24:57,990 --> 00:24:57,120
you just wrote a book on the metaphysics

703
00:24:59,669 --> 00:24:58,000
of young right

704
00:25:01,269 --> 00:24:59,679
jungian metaphysics something along

705
00:25:04,310 --> 00:25:01,279
those lines right so

706
00:25:07,669 --> 00:25:04,320
young is talking about the shadow right

707
00:25:10,710 --> 00:25:07,679
yeah and he's open to the idea that

708
00:25:12,630 --> 00:25:10,720
as you know and you're also versed in

709
00:25:14,950 --> 00:25:12,640
many of the spiritual traditions so you

710
00:25:15,990 --> 00:25:14,960
understand the tibetan buddhist concept

711
00:25:18,789 --> 00:25:16,000
of the tulpa

712
00:25:19,669 --> 00:25:18,799
and that as we have thought forms those

713
00:25:21,830 --> 00:25:19,679
thoughts

714
00:25:23,029 --> 00:25:21,840
exactly and those thought forms can

715
00:25:25,990 --> 00:25:23,039
become

716
00:25:26,830 --> 00:25:26,000
ego states slash altars the language

717
00:25:29,669 --> 00:25:26,840
becomes

718
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:29,679
very fluid there and that it sounds like

719
00:25:33,909 --> 00:25:31,360
we're talking about the same thing

720
00:25:34,789 --> 00:25:33,919
what is it uh aggregoria you know same

721
00:25:37,830 --> 00:25:34,799
kind of thing

722
00:25:41,269 --> 00:25:37,840
thought forms ego states

723
00:25:43,029 --> 00:25:41,279
alters and in in particular with young

724
00:25:44,310 --> 00:25:43,039
you know young is kind of playing both

725
00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:44,320
sides of the street too

726
00:25:48,070 --> 00:25:46,640
he's saying well you know i work with

727
00:25:49,909 --> 00:25:48,080
clients and we can kind of treat them

728
00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:49,919
just like they're separate

729
00:25:52,950 --> 00:25:51,360
but they're really not you know and then

730
00:25:53,590 --> 00:25:52,960
he switches over and he goes yeah but

731
00:25:55,510 --> 00:25:53,600
they are

732
00:25:57,750 --> 00:25:55,520
you know and he's kind of saying both so

733
00:26:00,870 --> 00:25:57,760
right yeah

734
00:26:03,909 --> 00:26:00,880
i think if you study jung's corpus

735
00:26:05,510 --> 00:26:03,919
carefully i i have done it i like to

736
00:26:07,350 --> 00:26:05,520
think that i have studied it carefully

737
00:26:10,870 --> 00:26:07,360
three times over

738
00:26:14,390 --> 00:26:10,880
there is no doubt that jung did think

739
00:26:17,909 --> 00:26:14,400
that certain dissociate dissociated

740
00:26:18,230 --> 00:26:17,919
complexes of the self which is his word

741
00:26:21,269 --> 00:26:18,240
for

742
00:26:22,470 --> 00:26:21,279
universal consciousness could be

743
00:26:25,590 --> 00:26:22,480
disembodied

744
00:26:28,470 --> 00:26:25,600
that you could have a subject

745
00:26:29,669 --> 00:26:28,480
um that is not correlated with the

746
00:26:31,750 --> 00:26:29,679
physical body that

747
00:26:33,029 --> 00:26:31,760
there is no question that jung thought

748
00:26:35,830 --> 00:26:33,039
that was possible

749
00:26:37,510 --> 00:26:35,840
despite all his you know tiptoeing and

750
00:26:38,390 --> 00:26:37,520
you know and sort of contradicting

751
00:26:40,710 --> 00:26:38,400
himself

752
00:26:41,669 --> 00:26:40,720
when you go really deep into it it's

753
00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:41,679
pretty clear

754
00:26:45,269 --> 00:26:44,320
that that's what he thought uh so from

755
00:26:47,830 --> 00:26:45,279
that perspective

756
00:26:49,269 --> 00:26:47,840
uh yeah it aligns with the the thought

757
00:26:52,070 --> 00:26:49,279
forms of buddhism

758
00:26:53,350 --> 00:26:52,080
it even align aligns with what some

759
00:26:55,029 --> 00:26:53,360
religious traditions would call

760
00:26:59,190 --> 00:26:55,039
discarnate personalities

761
00:27:02,870 --> 00:26:59,200
uh jung explicitly associated these

762
00:27:05,110 --> 00:27:02,880
dissociated complexes he associated them

763
00:27:07,110 --> 00:27:05,120
with what in the tradition has been

764
00:27:10,390 --> 00:27:07,120
called the angels and demons

765
00:27:11,430 --> 00:27:10,400
yes and and therein lies i think the the

766
00:27:14,470 --> 00:27:11,440
challenge

767
00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:14,480
because we go from

768
00:27:18,950 --> 00:27:17,200
philosophical idealism that you talk so

769
00:27:21,990 --> 00:27:18,960
eloquently about

770
00:27:22,870 --> 00:27:22,000
and then we go to the let's that's why i

771
00:27:24,870 --> 00:27:22,880
love the clinical

772
00:27:26,870 --> 00:27:24,880
you know then let's jump to the clinical

773
00:27:27,750 --> 00:27:26,880
and talk about the experiences people

774
00:27:30,710 --> 00:27:27,760
are having

775
00:27:32,630 --> 00:27:30,720
and let's talk about it in as scientific

776
00:27:34,870 --> 00:27:32,640
way as we can pre-scientific but

777
00:27:37,830 --> 00:27:34,880
scientific way as we can

778
00:27:38,549 --> 00:27:37,840
and now we have to look at that vast

779
00:27:41,590 --> 00:27:38,559
middle

780
00:27:42,950 --> 00:27:41,600
terrain that we have to traverse and it

781
00:27:44,870 --> 00:27:42,960
seems almost impossible

782
00:27:46,549 --> 00:27:44,880
what's in there well angels are in their

783
00:27:47,590 --> 00:27:46,559
demons are in their heaven is in their

784
00:27:49,990 --> 00:27:47,600
hell is in there

785
00:27:52,310 --> 00:27:50,000
uh everything that we care about is in

786
00:27:53,750 --> 00:27:52,320
there and yet we just kind of bracket it

787
00:27:55,669 --> 00:27:53,760
and said well that's all in the middle

788
00:27:57,750 --> 00:27:55,679
folks you know you have your experience

789
00:28:00,630 --> 00:27:57,760
and then you have the one

790
00:28:01,110 --> 00:28:00,640
it's a legitimate point i mean to to be

791
00:28:04,950 --> 00:28:01,120
fair

792
00:28:07,430 --> 00:28:04,960
to materialism um the the german study

793
00:28:10,789 --> 00:28:07,440
with the woman who had blind altars

794
00:28:11,430 --> 00:28:10,799
it proves that the id is a actual

795
00:28:13,510 --> 00:28:11,440
condition

796
00:28:14,549 --> 00:28:13,520
that people are not pretending they are

797
00:28:17,430 --> 00:28:14,559
not making this stuff

798
00:28:19,430 --> 00:28:17,440
up but it doesn't necessarily in and of

799
00:28:21,350 --> 00:28:19,440
itself contradict materialism

800
00:28:22,549 --> 00:28:21,360
because a materialist would say well it

801
00:28:25,190 --> 00:28:22,559
is the

802
00:28:26,070 --> 00:28:25,200
end of neural activity in the visual

803
00:28:28,149 --> 00:28:26,080
cortex

804
00:28:30,630 --> 00:28:28,159
that leads to blindness not the other

805
00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:30,640
way around you see

806
00:28:34,470 --> 00:28:32,640
yeah it's not the condition that causes

807
00:28:35,830 --> 00:28:34,480
that causes the blindness it's some

808
00:28:37,909 --> 00:28:35,840
physical stuff in the brain that

809
00:28:40,389 --> 00:28:37,919
switches off the visual cortex and then

810
00:28:43,750 --> 00:28:40,399
the person presents as being blind

811
00:28:45,909 --> 00:28:43,760
um so that alone would not define

812
00:28:47,750 --> 00:28:45,919
destroy materialism right but we're not

813
00:28:49,269 --> 00:28:47,760
just i mean we've already destroyed

814
00:28:50,950 --> 00:28:49,279
materialism it's already done

815
00:28:52,870 --> 00:28:50,960
there are other ways we're just trying

816
00:28:53,269 --> 00:28:52,880
to they're just trying to resurrect it

817
00:28:55,430 --> 00:28:53,279
because

818
00:28:56,389 --> 00:28:55,440
the problem with that logic is that if

819
00:28:58,149 --> 00:28:56,399
you follow it

820
00:29:00,230 --> 00:28:58,159
you get into this chicken in the egg

821
00:29:00,789 --> 00:29:00,240
problem you know which is what i always

822
00:29:04,070 --> 00:29:00,799
saw is

823
00:29:04,710 --> 00:29:04,080
ultimately the problem okay so mind can

824
00:29:07,750 --> 00:29:04,720
affect

825
00:29:08,549 --> 00:29:07,760
the physical body okay well keep taking

826
00:29:13,269 --> 00:29:08,559
that back

827
00:29:16,630 --> 00:29:13,279
what is the origin of this

828
00:29:19,510 --> 00:29:16,640
to to allude to jung again uh jung has

829
00:29:20,470 --> 00:29:19,520
said very clearly multiple places in his

830
00:29:22,789 --> 00:29:20,480
corpus

831
00:29:24,950 --> 00:29:22,799
that it is the mind that creates the

832
00:29:26,630 --> 00:29:24,960
body not the other way around that it is

833
00:29:30,389 --> 00:29:26,640
the the psyche

834
00:29:32,950 --> 00:29:30,399
that creates its own visible expression

835
00:29:36,389 --> 00:29:32,960
um so the arrow of causation is from

836
00:29:38,230 --> 00:29:36,399
mind to biology not from biology to mind

837
00:29:39,990 --> 00:29:38,240
it's one of the greatest thinkers of the

838
00:29:42,310 --> 00:29:40,000
20th century and he was pretty

839
00:29:44,710 --> 00:29:42,320
clear about this despite he's seen

840
00:29:46,950 --> 00:29:44,720
contradictions of himself depending on

841
00:29:48,149 --> 00:29:46,960
who he was talking to and at what point

842
00:29:50,789 --> 00:29:48,159
in his life

843
00:29:51,269 --> 00:29:50,799
and that might be an interesting topic

844
00:29:54,870 --> 00:29:51,279
to

845
00:29:55,430 --> 00:29:54,880
of the things that we're chatting out at

846
00:29:59,590 --> 00:29:55,440
the

847
00:30:03,110 --> 00:29:59,600
is this whole interplay between

848
00:30:06,070 --> 00:30:03,120
science and culture and who we trust and

849
00:30:07,669 --> 00:30:06,080
how even i guess how the most

850
00:30:10,710 --> 00:30:07,679
sophisticated people

851
00:30:12,789 --> 00:30:10,720
know how to dance the dance and

852
00:30:14,389 --> 00:30:12,799
young appeared to do that and i think

853
00:30:16,389 --> 00:30:14,399
it's an interesting contrast between

854
00:30:18,230 --> 00:30:16,399
young and freud because i would suggest

855
00:30:19,510 --> 00:30:18,240
that freud ultimately didn't know how to

856
00:30:22,950 --> 00:30:19,520
do that because

857
00:30:25,350 --> 00:30:22,960
even though freud is still you know

858
00:30:26,070 --> 00:30:25,360
to a lot of the general public is still

859
00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:26,080
kind of

860
00:30:29,750 --> 00:30:28,720
the name brand anyone who's looked into

861
00:30:31,590 --> 00:30:29,760
it said

862
00:30:33,190 --> 00:30:31,600
he's a cheater he's a liar he's not to

863
00:30:34,470 --> 00:30:33,200
be trusted because he just doesn't have

864
00:30:37,350 --> 00:30:34,480
that credibility

865
00:30:40,149 --> 00:30:37,360
young was able to put forth a lot of

866
00:30:42,950 --> 00:30:40,159
very controversial ideas that are still

867
00:30:43,830 --> 00:30:42,960
still relevant and poignant and

868
00:30:47,590 --> 00:30:43,840
meaningful

869
00:30:50,710 --> 00:30:47,600
and he was able to kind of do it without

870
00:30:53,269 --> 00:30:50,720
well while staying in the club he he

871
00:30:54,870 --> 00:30:53,279
he suffers from accusations of being a

872
00:30:57,269 --> 00:30:54,880
mystic

873
00:30:59,029 --> 00:30:57,279
there are corners uh in the world of

874
00:31:00,549 --> 00:30:59,039
psychiatry psychology and even

875
00:31:03,029 --> 00:31:00,559
mainstream science

876
00:31:03,990 --> 00:31:03,039
where people say well jung was a mystic

877
00:31:07,190 --> 00:31:04,000
as if this

878
00:31:09,269 --> 00:31:07,200
this were an offense

879
00:31:10,549 --> 00:31:09,279
but for them is an offense so so they

880
00:31:13,590 --> 00:31:10,559
mean it and

881
00:31:17,909 --> 00:31:13,600
as an offense uh jung did try

882
00:31:21,110 --> 00:31:17,919
to walk a very very tight rope

883
00:31:26,389 --> 00:31:21,120
and and that lead that has led him

884
00:31:30,549 --> 00:31:29,909
unavoidably religious clearly clearly

885
00:31:33,590 --> 00:31:30,559
religious

886
00:31:37,190 --> 00:31:33,600
but he would say that in scientific

887
00:31:40,789 --> 00:31:37,200
language and he distilled that to an

888
00:31:42,149 --> 00:31:40,799
art to an art form uh and that what are

889
00:31:43,430 --> 00:31:42,159
some of your favorite ones do any of

890
00:31:46,630 --> 00:31:43,440
your favorite ones come out

891
00:31:47,669 --> 00:31:46,640
i would have to pick up one oh can you

892
00:31:50,070 --> 00:31:47,679
give me a minute yeah

893
00:31:51,750 --> 00:31:50,080
yeah let me pick it up okay here's the

894
00:31:54,470 --> 00:31:51,760
book

895
00:31:56,310 --> 00:31:54,480
it will come out only next year so

896
00:31:58,870 --> 00:31:56,320
you're having a

897
00:32:00,389 --> 00:31:58,880
a major preview here but i have to find

898
00:32:03,590 --> 00:32:00,399
it now

899
00:32:04,870 --> 00:32:03,600
ah here i found it okay this is what

900
00:32:09,750 --> 00:32:04,880
jung wrote

901
00:32:12,789 --> 00:32:09,760
in answer to job page 141

902
00:32:13,269 --> 00:32:12,799
since the archetypes in question are not

903
00:32:16,549 --> 00:32:13,279
mere

904
00:32:20,070 --> 00:32:16,559
objects of the personal human mind

905
00:32:23,029 --> 00:32:20,080
but are also autonomous factors that is

906
00:32:24,950 --> 00:32:23,039
leaving subjects the differentiation of

907
00:32:27,149 --> 00:32:24,960
consciousness can be understood

908
00:32:30,389 --> 00:32:27,159
as the effect of the intervention of

909
00:32:33,430 --> 00:32:30,399
transcendentally conditioned dynamisms

910
00:32:35,110 --> 00:32:33,440
translation you are influenced by angels

911
00:32:40,149 --> 00:32:35,120
and demons that are real subjects

912
00:32:46,950 --> 00:32:43,509
so i mean he distilled this ability

913
00:32:49,509 --> 00:32:46,960
to to write about his religious

914
00:32:52,310 --> 00:32:49,519
uh convictions which he acquired through

915
00:32:56,310 --> 00:32:52,320
direct experience not through sermons

916
00:32:59,029 --> 00:32:56,320
um and to translate that into pretty

917
00:33:01,509 --> 00:32:59,039
neutral sounding scholarly sounding

918
00:33:02,310 --> 00:33:01,519
scientific language i found i find that

919
00:33:04,789 --> 00:33:02,320
brilliant

920
00:33:06,470 --> 00:33:04,799
he was a genius in that i find that

921
00:33:09,590 --> 00:33:06,480
brilliant as well and i find that

922
00:33:11,190 --> 00:33:09,600
genius about your work as well

923
00:33:13,110 --> 00:33:11,200
bernardo even though you're not

924
00:33:16,549 --> 00:33:13,120
motivated by uh

925
00:33:18,710 --> 00:33:16,559
a religious background of that sort

926
00:33:19,990 --> 00:33:18,720
i think that you're you're striving for

927
00:33:23,350 --> 00:33:20,000
something that we

928
00:33:27,830 --> 00:33:23,360
really feel like we all need and that's

929
00:33:31,110 --> 00:33:27,840
a solid intellectual

930
00:33:32,070 --> 00:33:31,120
uh deep dive into these so so important

931
00:33:35,029 --> 00:33:32,080
topics it's been

932
00:33:36,950 --> 00:33:35,039
awesome reconnecting with you tell folks

933
00:33:37,430 --> 00:33:36,960
what else is going on in your world i

934
00:33:39,430 --> 00:33:37,440
don't know

935
00:33:40,870 --> 00:33:39,440
i think there might be something major

936
00:33:42,630 --> 00:33:40,880
coming up but i don't know if you're

937
00:33:44,710 --> 00:33:42,640
ready to talk about that

938
00:33:46,710 --> 00:33:44,720
by now i'm ready because i have given

939
00:33:49,110 --> 00:33:46,720
notice already i'm um

940
00:33:50,310 --> 00:33:49,120
as most of you know i have been in the

941
00:33:53,350 --> 00:33:50,320
high tech industry

942
00:33:55,669 --> 00:33:53,360
for well over 20 years now

943
00:33:57,029 --> 00:33:55,679
in different positions as a scientist

944
00:33:59,909 --> 00:33:57,039
then as an entrepreneur

945
00:34:01,269 --> 00:33:59,919
and then as an executive for the past

946
00:34:04,950 --> 00:34:01,279
many years

947
00:34:07,750 --> 00:34:04,960
um i am leading and that now to focus

948
00:34:09,669 --> 00:34:07,760
exclusively on philosophy and the

949
00:34:11,510 --> 00:34:09,679
neuroscience of consciousness and the

950
00:34:14,470 --> 00:34:11,520
foundations of quantum physics

951
00:34:15,430 --> 00:34:14,480
because all these things their roots are

952
00:34:17,190 --> 00:34:15,440
the same

953
00:34:19,589 --> 00:34:17,200
they are just different branches of the

954
00:34:22,710 --> 00:34:19,599
same problem that we are investigating

955
00:34:25,990 --> 00:34:22,720
so we are starting a new foundation uh

956
00:34:28,149 --> 00:34:26,000
second half of this year i will disclose

957
00:34:30,470 --> 00:34:28,159
details name websites uh

958
00:34:32,550 --> 00:34:30,480
later on we need some a couple of months

959
00:34:34,710 --> 00:34:32,560
to sort of get it all going

960
00:34:36,389 --> 00:34:34,720
uh it is a it is a well-funded

961
00:34:40,149 --> 00:34:36,399
foundation i'm doing this with

962
00:34:42,230 --> 00:34:40,159
my dearest friend uh fred matzer

963
00:34:43,430 --> 00:34:42,240
uh who just released the film i don't

964
00:34:46,470 --> 00:34:43,440
know whether you saw

965
00:34:48,790 --> 00:34:46,480
uh beyond me it's available for free i

966
00:34:50,470 --> 00:34:48,800
think on vimeo

967
00:34:51,990 --> 00:34:50,480
we have been friends for several years

968
00:34:53,349 --> 00:34:52,000
now and we are

969
00:34:55,030 --> 00:34:53,359
doing this together together with a

970
00:34:57,109 --> 00:34:55,040
bunch of other people as well

971
00:34:58,230 --> 00:34:57,119
whose names you probably would recognize

972
00:35:01,670 --> 00:34:58,240
immediately if

973
00:35:02,710 --> 00:35:01,680
i mentioned them but it is a serious

974
00:35:07,430 --> 00:35:02,720
push

975
00:35:08,470 --> 00:35:07,440
towards making metaphysical idealism our

976
00:35:10,550 --> 00:35:08,480
mainstream

977
00:35:11,589 --> 00:35:10,560
narrative because we have every reason

978
00:35:13,750 --> 00:35:11,599
in the world

979
00:35:15,190 --> 00:35:13,760
to adopt it as the best option on the

980
00:35:17,030 --> 00:35:15,200
metaphysical table

981
00:35:18,790 --> 00:35:17,040
so we are getting pretty serious about

982
00:35:21,589 --> 00:35:18,800
that but very committed

983
00:35:22,230 --> 00:35:21,599
to that and this foundation will be our

984
00:35:24,150 --> 00:35:22,240
vehicle

985
00:35:25,750 --> 00:35:24,160
to try to achieve it within our

986
00:35:27,750 --> 00:35:25,760
lifetimes

987
00:35:29,349 --> 00:35:27,760
well that's fantastic and that really is

988
00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:29,359
big news um

989
00:35:34,150 --> 00:35:32,240
just before we wrap up you mentioned the

990
00:35:37,030 --> 00:35:34,160
young book is coming out

991
00:35:39,349 --> 00:35:37,040
next year where else people can of

992
00:35:42,069 --> 00:35:39,359
course go to metaphysical speculations

993
00:35:43,670 --> 00:35:42,079
to stay on top of what you're doing but

994
00:35:45,270 --> 00:35:43,680
is there anything in particular you

995
00:35:48,069 --> 00:35:45,280
wanted to direct people to

996
00:35:50,069 --> 00:35:48,079
that's uh actually there i have another

997
00:35:51,270 --> 00:35:50,079
book that's coming out end of july or

998
00:35:54,150 --> 00:35:51,280
first of august uh

999
00:35:56,390 --> 00:35:54,160
in the u.s this one that you just saw is

1000
00:35:56,710 --> 00:35:56,400
uh decoding jung's metaphysics but i

1001
00:35:59,589 --> 00:35:56,720
have

1002
00:36:00,230 --> 00:35:59,599
decoding schopenhauer's metaphysics

1003
00:36:02,069 --> 00:36:00,240
coming out

1004
00:36:03,910 --> 00:36:02,079
at the end of july i think is the 31st

1005
00:36:06,069 --> 00:36:03,920
of july in europe the 1st of august

1006
00:36:07,190 --> 00:36:06,079
in the u.s where i discuss

1007
00:36:10,950 --> 00:36:07,200
schopenhauer's

1008
00:36:15,349 --> 00:36:10,960
idealist metaphysical ideas

1009
00:36:18,630 --> 00:36:15,359
at length i think we should uh

1010
00:36:21,109 --> 00:36:18,640
recognize schopenhauer as the father

1011
00:36:23,030 --> 00:36:21,119
of the west of the west's native

1012
00:36:27,589 --> 00:36:23,040
non-duality philosophy

1013
00:36:30,790 --> 00:36:27,599
um we have our own non-dualism you know

1014
00:36:32,230 --> 00:36:30,800
the insights of a western man who aligns

1015
00:36:34,230 --> 00:36:32,240
so well with eastern

1016
00:36:36,349 --> 00:36:34,240
non-dualism as well but he has been

1017
00:36:39,190 --> 00:36:36,359
misunderstood and

1018
00:36:40,230 --> 00:36:39,200
outrageously misrepresented mainly in

1019
00:36:43,270 --> 00:36:40,240
academia

1020
00:36:43,910 --> 00:36:43,280
for several decades now and i think it's

1021
00:36:46,550 --> 00:36:43,920
time we

1022
00:36:48,790 --> 00:36:46,560
corrected that so we stopped saying that

1023
00:36:50,550 --> 00:36:48,800
schopenhauer was a nut

1024
00:36:53,030 --> 00:36:50,560
so we can see the wisdom and the

1025
00:36:54,069 --> 00:36:53,040
coherence the logical coherence of what

1026
00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:54,079
he was saying

1027
00:36:58,230 --> 00:36:56,560
which some of our arrogant academics

1028
00:36:59,510 --> 00:36:58,240
could not discern because they were just

1029
00:37:01,190 --> 00:36:59,520
not capable of understanding

1030
00:37:02,069 --> 00:37:01,200
schopenhauer and they translated that

1031
00:37:04,069 --> 00:37:02,079
into the

1032
00:37:06,550 --> 00:37:04,079
accusation that schopenhauer made no

1033
00:37:07,510 --> 00:37:06,560
sense that's just hubris i think it's

1034
00:37:09,910 --> 00:37:07,520
time we

1035
00:37:10,790 --> 00:37:09,920
we changed that right out of the

1036
00:37:12,710 --> 00:37:10,800
playbook

1037
00:37:14,630 --> 00:37:12,720
if i don't understand it i don't

1038
00:37:18,310 --> 00:37:14,640
understand the idea attacking

1039
00:37:23,990 --> 00:37:21,990
fantastic bernardo it's just fantastic

1040
00:37:25,270 --> 00:37:24,000
we're cheering for you we're hoping you

1041
00:37:27,510 --> 00:37:25,280
can kind of

1042
00:37:29,750 --> 00:37:27,520
advance the ball down the field a little

1043
00:37:31,430 --> 00:37:29,760
bit like you've already done so well

1044
00:37:33,349 --> 00:37:31,440
it's been great having you on thanks

1045
00:37:36,150 --> 00:37:33,359
again so much for being here

1046
00:37:37,910 --> 00:37:36,160
thank you alex great pleasure to be here

1047
00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:37,920
thanks again to bernardo for joining me

1048
00:37:41,349 --> 00:37:39,680
today on skeptico

1049
00:37:43,589 --> 00:37:41,359
let me tee up a question from this

1050
00:37:45,190 --> 00:37:43,599
interview which i don't know it wasn't

1051
00:37:46,950 --> 00:37:45,200
directly addressed but it's always

1052
00:37:49,829 --> 00:37:46,960
looming in the background

1053
00:37:51,030 --> 00:37:49,839
bernardo has some great wonderful

1054
00:37:54,069 --> 00:37:51,040
idealistic

1055
00:37:54,630 --> 00:37:54,079
no pun intended plans for breaking

1056
00:37:57,670 --> 00:37:54,640
through

1057
00:37:58,470 --> 00:37:57,680
the materialistic paradigm that science

1058
00:38:02,310 --> 00:37:58,480
is locked

1059
00:38:05,109 --> 00:38:02,320
into do you think that has any chance

1060
00:38:07,190 --> 00:38:05,119
or or put a percentage on it what is the

1061
00:38:07,750 --> 00:38:07,200
chance that that will happen in the next

1062
00:38:11,430 --> 00:38:07,760
i don't know

1063
00:38:13,589 --> 00:38:11,440
20 years i think it's very very close to

1064
00:38:16,390 --> 00:38:13,599
zero but i'd love to hear your

1065
00:38:18,710 --> 00:38:16,400
opinion on that place to do it of course

1066
00:38:20,230 --> 00:38:18,720
is skeptical forum or you can always

1067
00:38:21,910 --> 00:38:20,240
just drop me an email

1068
00:38:24,150 --> 00:38:21,920
love to hear from you love to hear what

1069
00:38:26,470 --> 00:38:24,160
you're thinking about these days these

1070
00:38:27,990 --> 00:38:26,480
crazy crazy days

1071
00:38:30,630 --> 00:38:28,000
i have some great shows coming up stay